The Second Presidential Debate

McCain and Obama faced off for 90 minutes in a town hall style debate at Belmont University in Nashville, Tennessee. NBC's Tom Brokaw was the moderator.

Michael Grunwald, Jim Poniewozik, and Karen Tumulty once again brought you up-to-the-minute commentary on the debate, which started at 9:00 p.m. EST. They will return here live on Wednesday, October 15, at 9:00 p.m. EST for the third Presidential Debate. Hofstra University in Long Island, New York is the site of the upcoming debate to be produced by the Commission on Presidential Debates. The moderator will be Bob Schieffer, CBS News Chief Washington Correspondent.

All times listed below are EST.

10:46 p.m. - JP - My wrapup: Congratulations, Commission on Presidential Debates! You managed to take an encounter with real Americans and drain it of any possible human interest! I can't, however, entirely blame the CPD. The candidates each seem to be playing for a tie. Politically, I can see why Obama would do that. I'm not entirely sure what McCain's aim was. And he's is supposed to be the guy who comes alive in the town hall format?

Also, I blame the people. I appreciate the audience dutifully following the instructions not to react, but even the questions—except that last corker from New Hampshire—were zombielike. Tom Brokaw, meanwhile, did not especially impress me: he seemed peevish about the time limits, and to the extent he tried to drive the discourse, it was often with weirdly stunt-y questions. ("Is Russia an Evil Empire?" Gentlemen, I invite you to start a new Cold War!)

Still and all, I'm somebody who's been following the campaign from the get-go. By definition this debate is not for me. Perhaps a voter who hasn't heard these answer before saw a very substantive, informative debate.

All in all, though, it was the work of professionals seemingly determined to avoid creating any memorable moments. And they succeeded greatly.

10:45 p.m. - MG - In conclusion: This was a lot like the first debate, except duller. They both did OK, I guess, but McCain looked old and grumpy, probably because he's old and grumpy. His real problem is that he's a Republican in a year when the Republican brand is so toxic it should qualify for a bailout. Obama keeps tying him to Bush, and because he's an allegation-ignorer rather than an allegation-answerer, he's practically conceding the point. At least he didn't roll out the slime, like Tammy Jones did.

Do you think Cindy McCain will call that the dirtiest debate in the history of the planet?

10:40 p.m. - KT - Summing up? I'm not sure this was a good night for Barack Obama, but I think it was a bad night for John McCain. And these last two debates were supposed to be his best ones.

10:35 p.m. - JP - Tom tells the candidates they are in the way of his prompter, "In addition to everything else"! Ouch! You do not do over the time limit on Mr. Brokaw!

10:34 p.m. - MG - And so they finish up: Change vs. Experience. Are campaigns really necessary?

10:32 p.m. - JP - What don't I know and how will I learn it? Um, the candidates' concrete plans to deal with the credit crisis, and—maybe by watching the next debate?

10:30 p.m. - MG - GREAT question, Peggy in New Hampshire!

10:27 p.m. - MG - I repeat: This format sucks. It's just side-by-side stump speeches with human props.

That said, if this was your only exposure to the campaign, you'd probably have enough information to make a reasonably informed decision.

10:26 p.m. - KT - Man! I was hoping McCain wouldn't bring up stinking corpses again in this debate. Plus, another "my friend."

10:25 p.m. - JP - McCain''s "maybe" on "Is Russia an Evil Empire?" perhaps his best answer of the night. A nonanswer with a cogent explanation of why it's a nonanswer.

10:23 p.m. - JP - Contributions of 2008 election to American lexicon: "petro-" as a prefix.

10:22 p.m. - MG - @JP: I doubt it. But so far the moment I'll remember from this one was McCain's little gotcha about how Obama voted for Bush's energy bill--which was actually a legitimate gotcha, because that bill sucked, but he said it in a way that suggested it was totally shocking that for once, Obama sided with Bush and McCain was on the other side. That's Obama's whole point.

10:22 p.m. - KT - @MG: Tammy totally should get to blog for the next debate. She took the buyout at the Post. What else does she have to do?

10:21 p.m. - JP - Another open question. Will there be a memorable moment from any one of the Presidential debates?

10:19 p.m. - MG - I think it's all gone downhill for McCain since Tammy criticized his tie. Now he's bragging how his snap judgment of Putin was better than Bush's snap judgment. And yes, I'm done abusing Tammy.

10:19 p.m. - KT - @JP: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

10:18 p.m. - JP - @MG: You didn't say "force for good *and not evil*." Also, sex gave us natural selection and the Internet. (At least if you include porn under sex.) I have officially dragged down the discussion.

10:17 p.m. - JP - Open question to those who study politics more than I do. I kept hearing how McCain thrives in the town hall. Um, is this thriving? Seriously, is this his usual performance, or is he accustomed to doing a different kind of town hall?

10:16 p.m. - KT - McCain: "I'm not going to telegraph my punches." You mean, like having your campaign tell the papers this weekend that you are going to go negative, so you can change the subject from the economy?

10:16 p.m. - JP - @KT: Guided By Lobbyists. Awesome band name.

10:15 p.m. - MG - @JP Are you kidding? Has there ever been a war, a scandal, or a celebrity divorce that wasn't caused by "the desire for sex"?

10:15 p.m. - KT - @JP:

Tonight, John McCain said: “There is too much special interests and too many lobbyists working there.“ [Presidential Debate, 10/7/08]

THE FACTS: MCCAIN HAS ACCEPTED MILLIONS IN CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS FROM LOBBYISTS AND PACs AND HIS CAMPAIGN IS RUN BY LOBBYISTS

McCain Accepted Millions In Campaign Contributions From Lobbyists And PACs. According to the Center for Responsive Politics, McCain's presidential campaign has accepted $841,716 from federal lobbyists, and $1,346,385 from PACs. [Center for Responsive Politics website, accessed 10/1/08]

MCCAIN IS A WASHINGTON INSIDER, WHOSE CAMPAIGN IS “GUIDED BY LOBBYISTS”

10:13 p.m. - JP - Obama: "You're doing a great job, Tom." Fortunately did not call him "likeable enough."

10:12 p.m. - JP - @KT: Nuggets, please!

10:12 p.m. - JP - @MG: Greatest force for good in the history in the world? Sorry, I've gotta give that one to "the desire for sex."

10:11 p.m. - KT - @JP: I'm getting constant nuggets. But I'm ignoring them. Should I post some of them?

10:09 p.m. - JP - @KT: Am curious--are the campaigns continually emailing you mini-spin nuggets to the debate answers? Or do they do a big spin dump afterward?

10:07 p.m. - JP - McCain: Next time you say foreign policy requires a "cool hand," go for a little less glowering and intense. And maybe don't make a fist.

10:06 p.m. - MG - I'm having trouble concentrating, because I'm trying to decide whether the United States is the greatest force for good in the history of the world. It's become one of those silly talking points, but it's really an incredibly provocative idea.It would be a great essay question: Discuss.

10:04 p.m. - JP - @KT: Seriously, it's like someone coached him to get into every frame possible. It's looks like the photos from Zelig.

10:03 p.m. - KT - I'm very distracted by McCain standing behind Obama and looking really, really mad.

10:03 p.m. - JP - Switching to beer, btw. In honor of Joe Sixpack.

10:02 p.m. - MG - The dials are going berserk again as Obama talks about how much we're spending in Iraq. Which raises a larger point that JP and I were discussing a bit offline: It may be that the post-debate polls favored Obama and Biden--and the national polls favor Obama-Biden--because more Americans agree with Obama and Biden about foreign and domestic policy. Which would be a problem for McCain.

10:01 p.m. - JP - @ the commenters: Yeah, I don't know what's going on with the CNN pundit scorecards either. I think some of them may have passed out. Poison gas?

9:59 p.m. - JP - Seriously, on that health-care-as-right thing: the dial-group's women had their dials jammed at the maximum for Obama for nearly his full answer. I think he may have broken the equipment.

9:57 p.m. - KT - Oh, what the hell, next time let's just bring Tammy into the blog. She now asks:

If you go across the state line' in Arizona in search of a better health plan, won't you be in Mexico?

9:56 p.m. - JP - Health care: right or responsibility:? Amazingly, they both answer. McCain says responsibility, Obama, right. I am going to sound partisan here, but just politically: You call health care a right. You just do it. I don't care what you actually believe. And the dial group, at least, seems to concur.

9:54 p.m. - MG - Obama has an ad in FL that says: The $5000 tax credit goes to the insurance companies. The new taxes go to you. I don't know if it's true--I am embarrassingly ignorant about health care--but it's pretty devastating.

9:53 p.m. - JP - On health care, a Bill Clinton would have laced his answers with little questions to the questioner—"Your premiums have gone up, right?"—that would prompt affirmations. Neither candidate is doing that, and I don't know why.

9:52 p.m. - MG - @JP: The crowd does look bored, even though Tom Brokaw said at the beginning that they had specifically promised to be "attentive." That's not attentiveness we can believe in.

9:51 p.m. - KT - @MG: Tammy retorts:

I am honored, and validated.

But... I was in the kitchen getting 'my friend' swig of sauvignon blanc and missed Obama's expression when McCain just taunted, 'THAT one.' Report, please!

9:50 p.m. - JP - McCain looming again. It's like he's going to come up on Obama with a blackjack.

9:48 p.m. - MG - Who would have thought that in the first hour, the only really nasty zinger would come from that vicious attack dog Tammy Jones?

9:49 p.m. - KT - That one?

9:47 p.m. - JP - The crowd of voters is doing an excellent job of looking unenthused. Nobody's bringing the fireworks.

9:45 p.m. - MG - @JP: Maybe they didn't like McCain scoffing at the notion that Obama thinks nuclear power ought to be safe. The nerve!

9:44 p.m. - JP - CNN dial group says: The ladies do not like nuclear power.

9:43 p.m. - KT - Third "my friends." You know what to do.

9:41 p.m. - JP - Where is this magical "table" you sit down to to solve all our problems? Why couldn't they just bring it out on stage?

9:41 p.m. - MG - The stage directions would have said:

MCCAIN (laughing creepily) "I'll answer the question."

9:40 p.m. - KT - @MG from my friend Tammy Jones:

Now MG made me feel bad for ridiculing an injured war hero. I wore a POW bracelet in 8th grade, even though it turned my wrist green!

Am I allowed to suggest that McCain find a personal dresser who appreciates that a tie is not supposed to exceed the length of the wearer's torso?

9:38 p.m. - JP - Tom Brokaw asks the candidates for a "date certain" on Social Security. What the-? I thought candidates were supposed to whip out stunt pledges. And also, that this debate's rules specifically forbade them. Is Tom Brokaw also going to whip out a veto pen?

9:36 p.m. - JP - "Senator Obama's secret, that you don't know..." Oh my God! He's going to play the Muslim card! Oh, wait, no, it's taxes.

9:35 p.m. - MG - McCain is really staking his claim on taxes. In Florida this week we've been deluged by Obama-will-raise-your-taxes ads. They seem very 1994.

9:35 p.m. - JP - Why not ask the $35K a year teacher to tighten her belt? Her reward is in Heaven!

9:35 p.m. - JP - @MG: Next debate: Presidential foam fingers!

9:33 p.m. - MG - @JP: He's like those guys behind the basket trying to distract the free-throw shooter!

9:32 p.m. - JP - McCain stands during Obama's response and sort of weirdly looms behind. He seems to be doing a lot of moving for the sake of moving.

9:30 p.m. - MG - Like John McCain, I am somewhat obsessed with porkbarrel spending and earmarks. But I don't know anyone else who shares our obsession.

9:29 p.m. - JP - @MG: To be fair, spending by terrorists stimulates all manner of economic sectors.

9:28 p.m. - KT - @MG: Yeah, I'm kind of mystified about that $700 billion statement. Plus, this whole town hall format is not working for McCain.

9:27 p.m. - MG - Obama is an allegation-answerer. McCain is a allegation-ignorer. I have no idea which comes off better. It makes McCain look like the aggressor, since he doesn't bother to answer Obama's charges. But maybe it means that Obama's charges stick.

9:27 p.m. - JP - Surprised that Obama actually does rank his economic priorities in order, which seems begging to be made into an attack ad. But doesn't take the bait to put entitlement reform on his list, since it automatically means goring someone's ox.

9:26 p.m. - JP - Staffer who gave Obama the current price of gas in Nashville gets a little something extra in his paycheck this week.

9:24 p.m. - MG - Did McCain just say he'll make sure the $700 billion (the bailout, right?) won't end up in the hands of terrorists? Or did I miss an antecedent?

9:24 p.m. - JP - Rank health care, energy and entitlement reforms in order of importance? It's Marry, Boff, Kill for the economy!

9:24 p.m. - KT - Second "my friends." Drink!

9:22 p.m. - KT - @MG: Yes, it really is feeling like Short Attention Span Theater.

9:22 p.m. - JP - @MG: And neither is taking any chance to phrase these concerns in kitchen-table terms. Somewhere, Bill Clinton is throwing things at the TV.

9:21 p.m. - JP - McCain tells a voter that he understands her "cynicism"?

9:20 p.m. - MG - This is almost useless without follow-ups. It's like they take turns delivering their stump speeches.

9:18 p.m. - MG - I hate to be even unfunnier than usual, but McCain moves that way because he got the living crap beaten out of him in a prison camp.

9:18 p.m. - JP - @KT: Yeah, maybe not fair, but relevant anyway. McCain does not move like a young man, or even a spry 72-year-old. I'm not sure all the walking is well advised.

9:17 p.m. - JP - @MG: I want to see politicians jabbing fingers.

9:16 p.m. - KT - My friend Tammy Jones writes:

McCain moves in a peculiar manner that makes me suspect that Obama gave him a wedgie before they went onstage.

9:15 p.m. - KT - Nancy Gibbs notes that this is maybe not the best day for McCain to invoke Meg Whitman:

Agence France-Presse
Page 18
2008-10-08 01:21 AM

Internet giant eBay Inc., which has seen sluggish growth in its online auction business, announced Monday it was cutting its global workforce by about 10 percent....

9:14 p.m. - MG - I'm interested in hearing politicians pointing fingers! Why aren't the American people?

9:13 p.m. - KT - McCain starting to get breathy and angry.

9:13 p.m. - JP - We're getting all kinds of crazy back and side shots of the candidates. There is such a thing as too much moving aboutt the stage.

9:12 p.m. - JP - Wasn't Obama directed never to say "I agree with John" about anything? Wasn't McCain directed not to mention his campaign "suspension"?

9:11 p.m. - MG - How condescending is that? I'll bet you never heard of Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac? McCain isn't even right about the facts; the FM's were far from the worst offenders when it came to the subprime craze.

9:09 p.m. - JP - 1.3 million Americans make their living off eBay? Factcheck.org, please? Although, give it a few weeks, and it will probably be true. Can you sell tin cups of pencils on eBay?

9:08 p.m. - KT - First "my friends." Drink!

9:07 p.m. - JP - McCain was directed to go into the audience and address voters. Is this permitted in the debate rules? In any case, the question from the frowning guy in the Uncle Junior glasses was perhaps not the moment.

9:06 p.m. - JP - "Senator Obama, it's good to be with you tonight at a town hall meeting." ROWRRR! Or rather, ROWRR!, to the few thousand political junkies who get the reference.

9:06 p.m - MG - Senator Obama, it's good to be with you at a town-hall meeting. A bit subtle, but I laughed.

9:06 p.m. - KT - Commenter ivb: McCain isn't wearing a flag pin. Took first drink anyway.

9:04 p.m. - JP - @KT: There will be an acoustic guitar segment.

9:03 p.m. - KT - What's with the stools? Is this "Cheers"?

9:03 p.m. - JP - McCain shakes Obama's hand AND looks at him!

9:00 p.m. - JP - NBC's debate-coverage graphics include Greek columns. I call that arrogant!

8:58 p.m. - JP - On Fox News, Bill Kristol wants McCain to play the Ayers card. Also says it's OK for him to be "a little peevish."

8:57 p.m. - MG - David Gergen also said that voters want to hear real specific plans, which is even stronger evidence that voters don't want to hear real specific plans.

8:57 p.m. - KT - On MSNBC, I think I hear Chris Matthews in the 1.0 version of his stump speech for running against Arlen Specter.

8:54 p.m. - JP - Only 68% of the CNN undecided focus group think the country is headed in the wrong direction? Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the most optimistic people in America.

8:51 p.m. - MG - I would also like to say that like all those undecided voters in Columbus, I'm really looking for a candidate who will lay out a plan. With real specific details, not just vague political talking points. Because I'm a liar, and I know that's what I'm supposed to say when they put a camera in front of me.

8:49 p.m. - JP - By the way, do we have a rule in the drinking game for when someone in the crowd yells "Traitor!" or "Terrorist!"?

8:44 p.m. - JP - By the way, what does Soledad O'Brien think about again being consigned to undecided-voter-panel hell in Columbus again?

Also, as a Michigan Wolverine, I resent people from Columbus getting to speak for America's undecided. Although who am I kidding, the entire city of Ann Arbor is voting Obama.

8:44 p.m. - KT - Commenter grape_crush notes:

Karen, you may want to get the linky to this debate moved to the top of the page over at Swampland...some folks (non-regulars) may miss the posting you made earlier today...Just a suggestion.

Second, I have CNN HD on the teevee because Blitzer promised something special on HD and CNN.com Live sharing my Desktop with this liveblog...I have officially entered news junkie mode.

Third, it's a cheap seasonal spiced wine tonight...

Fourth, why can't the marketing geniuses at CNN come up with a better name for the magic board than "the magic board"?

8:41 p.m. - MG - Did Cindy McCain really say that Obama is running the dirtiest campaign in history? Dirtier than Jefferson 1800? Dirtier than the six militiamen? Dirtier than Ma, Ma, where's my Pa? Dirtier than George Bush sliming John McCain in South Carolina in 2000?

Next they're going to say Obama is too old to be president.

8:41 p.m. - JP - On CNN, someone—I believe it was Suzanne Malveaux—said that because of stereotypes Barack Obama cannot afford, as a black man, to appear too angry or use humor. Really? Not even a "white people dance like this..." joke?

8:37 p.m. - JP - @KT: Don't worry. John McCain can't use the remote, either.

8:34 p.m. - KT - So I'm trying to figure out which of our six remotes will actually tune the TV. My 16-year-old son comes in and finds MSNBC and adds: "It's called technology, Mom." Oh.

8:31 p.m. - MG - I will say that tonight, I'll be looking out for the candidate whose soothing voice can put my 6-month-old to sleep. Because like all American voters, I want a candidate who cares about helping people like me. Also, it would be good if they could promise to cut taxes on live-blogging.

8:31 p.m. - JP - John King is having electoral fun with his big screen touch map. Do they have that as an app for the iPhone? Because I would be on that ALL DAY.

8:25 p.m. - KT - @JP: I'm drinking a Fess Parker chardonnay, buddy, because no one is more American than Daniel Boone.

8:24 p.m. - MG - I'm drinking Crystal Spring, because I'm a wuss!

8:21 p.m. - JP - The dual-tuner Tivo is my friend. One tuner is set to PBS, as a base, recording the debate. On the other, I flip.

But I want to know what we're all drinking! I'm drinking a Bonny Doon Syrah, because I am an elitist. But it's an American wine!

8:15 p.m. - MG - I like the squiggly lines! Is that OK?

8:02 p.m. - KT - Okay, guys, first let's figure out where we are watching this thing. CNN's squiggly lines confuse me, plus I'm willing to give home-court advantage, so I'm going to find some flavor of NBC to watch tonight. And you?

Plus, I'm going to copy my post from Swampland. I think the burden is on McCain tonight, and here's what I think he needs to accomplish.